Yeah, love seeing new posts from you in my inbox. I was impressed with the final result - do you think you'd be able to provide video of manipulation of the trunk (or any other sample, really)? I think the stiffness would be more intuitively shown in a video as opposed to the photo.
For your list of learnings at the end:
Do you think one could use a papier-maché/egg-carton material mono-piece for the stiffener(s)? It could be pressed in one go from recycled paper pulp, a similar price to egg cartons (which I have to assume are cheap).
For the shrinkage, do you think a filler such as calc-carb or lime would help? I guess the alternative would be to look into a non-drying glue.
Sure, I could probably shoot a quick clip for you. Anything in particular you'd like to see? If it helps with a comparison, the material is qualitatively roughly about as stiff as a fiberglass/epoxy composite.
The one piece stiffener idea is a good one. I think the only trouble with papier-maché is that you'd need another mold to make that I assume. At that point, you could probably just CNC out the desired shape from a foam core.
This glue actually already does have lime in it. Doesn't seem to prevent shrinkage that much. It's added more to help with waterproofing/prevent degradation. In my short experience, any glue recipe with water as an ingredient seems to shrink.
Maybe lifting one corner of the trunk, while pushing down on the other (for torsion)? Also pushing down somewhere? I'd love to see you handling it - yeah weights and flexural stiffness values mean something, but it's not as intuitive.
Yeah just thinking of a more mass-production (but still natural materials) option. Gotta dream big.
Are you still open to improving methods/materials? I guess the way to reduce shrinkage is to reduce water content, or part thickness. Have you quantified the shrinkage? One could cast various ratios into the same mold, and measure them once they'd cured/dried. I wonder if your milkiness was because the linen pulled the water out of the glue too quickly. A similar thing happens with lime-based paints/plasters/mortars, pre-wetting the substrate is the way to go in that case.
Have you looking into limonene as an alternative solvent for shellac? Where does it fall on your work-with-naked scale?
Got some time to make that video for you: https://youtu.be/rKnCQlAPhEI . The clamping wasn't the best, but hopefully gives you enough of a sense.
I'll leave the big dreaming to you when it comes to this particular idea haha. I think I'm more or less done with this particular recipe. I think I'll continue to mess with natural composites on the side, but it'll be more of a side project / back burner thing. From personal experience, I like to iterate big before iterating small, so I think I would try different glue concepts rather than trying to get this one to work.
I didn't look into shellac further. I was pretty happy with the linseed oil and beeswax combo that I settled on. It did eventually dry to the touch so I have no complaints with it.
Another great post, thanks for sharing. It's sad that the outcome disappointed you, but I look forward to whatever is next, and it's really cool that you've got to the point of making a boot lid out of natural composite that is both stiffer & lighter than the original. That's a good achievement!
> The only thing I learned in the second half was how much worse the real trunk was compared to the trunk in my head.
You might enjoy Ira Glass's "Advice to Beginners":
“Nobody tells this to people who are beginners, I wish someone told me. All of us who do creative work, we get into it because we have good taste. But there is this gap. For the first couple years you make stuff, it’s just not that good. It’s trying to be good, it has potential, but it’s not. But your taste, the thing that got you into the game, is still killer. And your taste is why your work disappoints you. A lot of people never get past this phase, they quit. Most people I know who do interesting, creative work went through years of this. We know our work doesn’t have this special thing that we want it to have. We all go through this. And if you are just starting out or you are still in this phase, you gotta know its normal and the most important thing you can do is do a lot of work. Put yourself on a deadline so that every week you will finish one story. It is only by going through a volume of work that you will close that gap, and your work will be as good as your ambitions. And I took longer to figure out how to do this than anyone I’ve ever met. It’s gonna take a while. It’s normal to take a while. You’ve just gotta fight your way through.”
Yeah, love seeing new posts from you in my inbox. I was impressed with the final result - do you think you'd be able to provide video of manipulation of the trunk (or any other sample, really)? I think the stiffness would be more intuitively shown in a video as opposed to the photo.
For your list of learnings at the end:
Do you think one could use a papier-maché/egg-carton material mono-piece for the stiffener(s)? It could be pressed in one go from recycled paper pulp, a similar price to egg cartons (which I have to assume are cheap).
For the shrinkage, do you think a filler such as calc-carb or lime would help? I guess the alternative would be to look into a non-drying glue.
Thanks for the article!
Sure, I could probably shoot a quick clip for you. Anything in particular you'd like to see? If it helps with a comparison, the material is qualitatively roughly about as stiff as a fiberglass/epoxy composite.
The one piece stiffener idea is a good one. I think the only trouble with papier-maché is that you'd need another mold to make that I assume. At that point, you could probably just CNC out the desired shape from a foam core.
This glue actually already does have lime in it. Doesn't seem to prevent shrinkage that much. It's added more to help with waterproofing/prevent degradation. In my short experience, any glue recipe with water as an ingredient seems to shrink.
Maybe lifting one corner of the trunk, while pushing down on the other (for torsion)? Also pushing down somewhere? I'd love to see you handling it - yeah weights and flexural stiffness values mean something, but it's not as intuitive.
Yeah just thinking of a more mass-production (but still natural materials) option. Gotta dream big.
Are you still open to improving methods/materials? I guess the way to reduce shrinkage is to reduce water content, or part thickness. Have you quantified the shrinkage? One could cast various ratios into the same mold, and measure them once they'd cured/dried. I wonder if your milkiness was because the linen pulled the water out of the glue too quickly. A similar thing happens with lime-based paints/plasters/mortars, pre-wetting the substrate is the way to go in that case.
Have you looking into limonene as an alternative solvent for shellac? Where does it fall on your work-with-naked scale?
Got some time to make that video for you: https://youtu.be/rKnCQlAPhEI . The clamping wasn't the best, but hopefully gives you enough of a sense.
I'll leave the big dreaming to you when it comes to this particular idea haha. I think I'm more or less done with this particular recipe. I think I'll continue to mess with natural composites on the side, but it'll be more of a side project / back burner thing. From personal experience, I like to iterate big before iterating small, so I think I would try different glue concepts rather than trying to get this one to work.
I didn't look into shellac further. I was pretty happy with the linseed oil and beeswax combo that I settled on. It did eventually dry to the touch so I have no complaints with it.
Another great post, thanks for sharing. It's sad that the outcome disappointed you, but I look forward to whatever is next, and it's really cool that you've got to the point of making a boot lid out of natural composite that is both stiffer & lighter than the original. That's a good achievement!
> The only thing I learned in the second half was how much worse the real trunk was compared to the trunk in my head.
You might enjoy Ira Glass's "Advice to Beginners":
“Nobody tells this to people who are beginners, I wish someone told me. All of us who do creative work, we get into it because we have good taste. But there is this gap. For the first couple years you make stuff, it’s just not that good. It’s trying to be good, it has potential, but it’s not. But your taste, the thing that got you into the game, is still killer. And your taste is why your work disappoints you. A lot of people never get past this phase, they quit. Most people I know who do interesting, creative work went through years of this. We know our work doesn’t have this special thing that we want it to have. We all go through this. And if you are just starting out or you are still in this phase, you gotta know its normal and the most important thing you can do is do a lot of work. Put yourself on a deadline so that every week you will finish one story. It is only by going through a volume of work that you will close that gap, and your work will be as good as your ambitions. And I took longer to figure out how to do this than anyone I’ve ever met. It’s gonna take a while. It’s normal to take a while. You’ve just gotta fight your way through.”
Thanks James -- that's brilliant advice.